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| Frieza VS Cooler | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jul 23 2009, 03:50 PM (2,297 Views) | |
| Enigmus | Jul 23 2009, 03:50 PM Post #1 |
Wut???
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Now i was wondering who would win just after i finished watching Coolers Revenge. But them being brothers theyre sure to know each others powers and techniques. Quite confusing, And im tossed between who would win. Whats you opinion? |
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| Super Goku | Jul 23 2009, 04:12 PM Post #2 |
Vizard Jinchurikii
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Cooler. Someone said Cooler said that freeza had a slight advantage over him, UNTIL cooler went through his fourth transformation. So , Final Form Cooler > 100% Freeza though it doesnt make sense that SSJ Goku defeated Final Form Cooler so easily, whereas he still had trouble fighting freeza. I'm gonna try to explain it by saying that after nameks explosion and the fight with freeza, Goku's PL gew from being wounded, and after cooler almost killed him with the laser beams, im sure his PL grew quite a bit. SSJ, being a multiplier, would only increase this further. |
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| * Psyam | Jul 23 2009, 04:43 PM Post #3 |
 
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We just had this topic but I'm ok to start it again, so the new members can have their say. I'll try and sum up what I said last time, by copy pasting some of it, with some edits. When Frieza powered up to 50% of his maximum, he said he'd never had to summon this much energy to beat a fighter before. Keeping in mind that Cooler said "Frieza always had the edge", it can be assumed they've fought before. That would mean in previous fights, Frieza didn't even have to use 50% of his maximum to beat Cooler. Therefore, how can Cooler know Frieza's real power? Cooler didn't. Therefore, he said he was stronger then Frieza without knowing how strong Frieza actually was at his maximum. Perhaps he didn't even know Frieza was holding back, maybe Frieza thought it was amusing to fool him. Anyway, if you asked Frieza, I'm pretty certain he would of said he was stronger then Cooler. I don't think Cooler saying he was stronger then his brother should be taken as the truth, just as a boast. I'm sure Cooler would hate to admit that his little brother was stronger then himself. Now, here is my main argument as to why Frieza is stronger at 100% power, using simple mathematics. Base Goku (Frieza Saga) was around equal to 2% power Frieza. They had an even match at the start of their fight, in which Goku hadn't started using Kaioken yet. Base Goku (Frieza Saga) = 2% Power Frieza Base Goku in Cooler's Revenge beat 4th form Cooler. If you watch the fight between them, it's clear that Goku had an advantage over Cooler's 4th form. Goku can't of got THAT much stronger since Namek, not from a years training in space and a little on Earth. No way. Let's assume Goku was 2 times stronger in Cooler's Revenge then when he fought Frieza, even though such an increase in power is unlikely at best. If Goku in the Frieza saga was roughly equal to 2% of Frieza's Maximum, then 2 times Goku from the Frieza Saga would be roughly equal to 4% of Frieza's full power. He was beating 4th form Cooler at base. Cooler seemed to be getting worried as he transformed pretty quickly after he took a beating. If Goku would be equal to just 4% of Frieza's full power in Cooler's Revenge, then 4% Frieza would also beat 4th form Cooler. Well, that would mean (in this example, and I've been generous to Goku's power) Cooler would have to become at least 25 times more powerful when he transformed to beat 100% Frieza. I don't see that as being very likely. I doubt Goku would of doubled his strength since Namek, either, so it would be more then 25 times. This whole thing seems absurd, as that would mean Final Form Frieza would vastly out power 4th form Cooler. However, how did Cooler even know he could beat Frieza when Frieza has spent many years in his first form, and had never even summoned all of his power against someone before? I think Frieza was by far the stronger brother. Cooler was just too arrogant to see the truth. And that’s why he got beat so much easier then Frieza. It comes down to a few questions, the way I see it. Do you think Goku honestly got more then 2x more powerful in a year? Or that Cooler got more then 25 times more powerful when he transformed? Because I don’t. And if you don’t, then 100% Frieza is stronger. At least, that’s what I’ve figure. Also, I'd like to add that while Cooler and Frieza both fought an injured Goku (they both beat Goku up a lot before he went Super Saiyan), Frieza was injured and Cooler wasn't. The Spirit Bomb that hit Frieza damaged him a LOT. Cooler didn't have a mark on him after he transformed. Despite his injury's, 100% Frieza was able to hurt Goku with his punches (until his damaged body caused him to lose all of his energy). Cooler was completely undamaged, but a direct punch to Goku's chest didn't even make Goku flinch. That's pretty damn strong evidence of Frieza being stronger, even if Goku did improve since Namek. Goku struggled to repel both Cooler's Supernova and Frieza's 100% Death Ball. Yes, Goku struggled a little less with Frieza's attack, but Frieza was injured and losing his energy. Cooler still had his full power. Edit: I changed the numbers from Goku being 3x stronger in Cooler's Revenge to 2x. I don't see how he could possibly get more then 2x more powerful. Edited by Psyam, Jul 23 2009, 04:50 PM.
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| BUU | Jul 24 2009, 01:36 AM Post #4 |
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I'm pretty sure we did this last time, but who cares? This is what I put last time. In the fight against Goku in his base form, many people say that Cooler got his butt kicked. I would have to disagree. Cooler never took any serious damage. He only got punched a couple of times.Otherwise, he evened up with Goku. The reason why he transformed was because he probably knew that it was pointless to fight Goku in his base form because they were even. Another point I would like to bring up is that since Frieza beat normal Goku with 2% of his power, there's no way that even transformed Cooler could beat Fireza unless his transformation powered him up by x17 or x18, which many say is illogical. However, nothing in DBZ is logical;energy blasts, flying, destroying planets, etc. Besides, Frieza raises his power from 12,000,000 to 120,000,000 when he uses 100% full power. This is a x10 increase! Also, Goku x20 his power when he uses Kaio-ken. So why is it impossible for Cooler to x18 his power? Also, many people say that while Cooler got his butt kicked by S.S Goku, Frieza put up a good fight. Well, I admit that this is a good point, but I did some research and found a important, yet not really acknowledged difference between the anime and the manga. In the anime, Frieza puts an intense fight against S.S. Goku(and at one point was winning), but in the manga, even at 100% full power, he still was not much of a challenge for Goku. Another key factor is that Goku powered up a little since Namek, but if that wasn't enough, Cooler's eye laser nearly killed Goku (good thing he got a senzu). This was a near death experience and according to Vegeta, after a near death experience, after a saiyan is fully recovered, they become stronger. Some say that Cooler wouldn't even beat 50% full power, but I disagree. At 50% full power, Frieza was equal to Kaio-ken x20 (both had a power level of 60,000,000). Yet in the movie, Cooler trashes Kaio-ken x10 and x20 with ease. Also Frieza struggled with a x20 kamehameha, but Cooler acted as if it was nothing and jumped into the kamehameha and "swam" through it. And since Cooler easily defeated Kaio-ken while Frieza struggled, it's obvious that Cooler wins against 50% full power. Another key thing to remember is that on the battle of Namek, Frieza 100% Full power launched possibly his most stongest attack, The 100% full power death ball, yet Goku punched it back as if it were a volleyball. However, Cooler's most powerful attack took Goku all his energy to reflect because he immediately returned to normal. While against Frieza, he remained Super Saiyan and even had enough energy to give to Frieza. Although people say Cooler caught Goku off guard (which is true) , what if he caught Frieza off guard? And my last point is that if Cooler was losing, he'd use his ability to gather energy exremely fast to create a Supernova and launch it at Frieza. Since it took S.S. Goku (who is more powerful than Frieza) all his energy to repel the supernova, Frieza would struggle but not prevail. Although some people might say that since Mecha Frieza can do a Supernova, 100% Full power can.Well, IF that were true, Frieza's would be much weaker because Trunks easily repelled it with one hand (and since Trunks had around the same power as S.S. Goku) it would be obvious that Cooler's is stronger So this fight would be like a coin toss. PS Oh yeah, I have a new reason why I think Cooler would win. I also have been thinking about what people said about what people said about Cooler not knowing Frieza's true power, and I came to a conclusion that it's like turning from S.S. to SS2, there are ways to totally max out the Super Saiyan's power(such as Ascended Super Saiyan Full power Super Saiyan, etc.) Well, 100% full power is like that. Cooler must know about 100%, because it's like a stage you have to pass in order to go on to the next transformation. |
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| * Psyam | Jul 24 2009, 02:27 AM Post #5 |
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I'd just like to say 100% power isn't a transformation at all. It's just Frieza using his full power. In the manga, Frieza's muscle mass doesn't increase much when he goes 100%. The animé creators over-dramatised it by making him bulk up a lot. |
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| Temphis | Jul 24 2009, 03:56 AM Post #6 |
Rampaging Explosion of Euphoric Glory!
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by all means, you would think, at first glance, Coola is stronger. 4th form (or freiza's final form) is supposedly the actual form of their race, and the other forms where made to supress the power of their original form. I really don't know what the advantage of that would be, perhaps training in a lower form helps to rapidly increase your true power, I dunno. the thing is, you would think Coola would be stronger, since he actually had a 5th form, which would insinuate, that it magnifies the power of his true form. now, consider the possibility that 5th form is like a super form for the changeling race, and it may be possible that it is 25 times stronger than a base form (4th form). now, I really don't know what to think when you compare the battles and explanations given for both, however, I do know this; Akira has never really cared much for continuity in Dragon Ball, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the movies, so theres a good chance he really just didn't care, and just hoped people would look at Coola as if he was "a new and even more powerful villian than the one he fought before", only he has to be beaten within the leangth of a short film instead of a series of half an hour episodes or manga issues....I'm more likely to believe that there isn't a real answer to this question. I would like to believe that Coola is stronger, but than again, It makes more sense for Freiza to be stronger. either way, Coola only showed up in one other movie, while Freiza showed up in a bunch of other things, so it's obvious who was more important lol. |
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| RyDub | Jul 24 2009, 03:48 PM Post #7 |
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By that statement all we really know is Frezia never had to fight some one from another planet, race, or what have you at fifty percent of his maximum. Would you really consider your brother as a fighter? Did Cooler and Frezia hate each other or anything? Wasn't Cooler there to avenge the deaths of his father and brother? Chances are Cooler and Fezia have fought each other at their best. How else would frezia know the difference between using ten percent compared to using fifty or one hundred percent of his power. At some point in time he must have powered up to the level and higher to know where he stood power level wise. Now i've never really watched the cooler movies or much of the DBZ movies in general. I have seen clips of some but never sat and actually watched them whole except for Tree of Might I think it was. But I have seen this discussion before. I have no idea who would win but i'll toss a coin and give it to Frezia. |
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| BUU | Jul 24 2009, 07:01 PM Post #8 |
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Yes, I know that it isn't technically a transformation, but a way to to fully utilize final form's power. It's like ascended Super Saiyan, Ultra Super Saiyan, and Full power Super Saiyan because it's technically a forced transformation like Ultra Super Saiyan and Ascended Super Saiyan. (When in Ascended Super Saiyan, you are still a Super Saiyan, you are just utilizing the form's true strength, speed,etc. In Ultra Super Saiyan, you are utilizing the form's true power and strength. In full power Super Saiyan, you are using the form in it's true potential. Full power is like one of these; it's just utilizing final form's true power.) So Cooler should know about full power because it's a way to utilize final form. And since Cooler's final form is similar to SS2 and 100% is similar to Ascended, it's safe to presume that Cooler's final form gives him the advantage |
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| * Psyam | Jul 24 2009, 10:18 PM Post #9 |
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But it's just Frieza's true power. Not any sort of form at all. Before that he was just holding back. For example, Goku can either hold his power back as a SSJ2 or power up and use all of it, but when he does the latter it isn't Ascended SSJ2 or Ultra SSJ2 etc, it's just his full power. The same applies to Frieza. His "100%" is just what it says on the tin, Frieza using 100% of his power. And even if it was a forced transformation, I don't think Cooler would have reached it, no way. Frieza was able to dominate Goku (before he turned SSJ) effortlessly, without even using most of his power. Cooler got punched around by Goku who (unless the aura was invisible) wasn't even using Kaioken. Regardless of who's stronger at their peaks, Frieza's 4th form is leagues above Cooler's, so it's unlikely he could go "100%" like Frieza, even if it was a variation of his 4th form, which it's not. Cooler can go to the 100% of his power in his 4th form, but it won't be the same as Frieza's. It'd be a lot weaker. ...So it's not really a case of Cooler having the power up as well and favouring his 5th form instead, it's more likely a case of him using his 5th form as a way to make up for himself being weaker. |
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| Meta Cooler | Jul 24 2009, 11:06 PM Post #10 |
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Let's put it this way: Freiza in his very best form ( Mecha) got his ***** kicked by SSJ Trunks and was sliced in half. Cooler in his very best form (Meta) didn't even take a scratch from SSJ Goku and SSJ Vegeta - who are both stronger than Trunks. Cooler is the stronger brother out of the 2 and that's how it was supposed to be. |
 An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good!' If you can't see the bright side of life, polish the dull side. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it. | |
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| * Psyam | Jul 24 2009, 11:34 PM Post #11 |
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But (assumably) this is 100% Frieza Vs. Final Form Cooler. Also, don't be so quick to judge when your argument isn't even true. Goku tore half of Meta Cooler off when he charged him, I'd call that more then a scratch. Cooler would of lost there and then had he not been able to regenerate. And later Goku and Vegeta completely destroyed Meta Cooler (the first one, that is), so how on Earth do you figure that Cooler never got a scratch? Also, Trunks caught Frieza off guard, and Frieza may not have even been powered up to his max at the time. But that's irrelevant. We seem to be discussing 100% Frieza Vs. Final Form Cooler here. |
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Jul 24 2009, 11:47 PM Post #12 |
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But this isn't about Mecha Frieza or Meta Cooler. Frieza is stronger than Cooler, but Cooler has reached a form that Frieza hasn't reached yet. I believe that alone makes Cooler have the edge here. Had Frieza reached that form, he would have been able to easily defeat Cooler. |
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| Meta Cooler | Jul 25 2009, 12:24 AM Post #13 |
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They didn't even scratch him because his limbs regenerate thanks to the Big Gete star. Destroying the Big Gete star wasn't actually killing him in a real fight. Goku and Vegeta were hopeless against Meta Cooler. I did know my own argument. Trunks also beat Frieza fair and square -even though of course that really doesn't matter. He killed Frieza by strength not by catching him off guard - that means it was pure luck. Yes, Frieza is stronger than Cooler and Cooler does admit that Frieza had always had the edge - in his 4th form. Cooler in his final form would obliterate Frieza in his final form 100% power. The only reason Goku finished off Cooler quicker was because it was in a MOVIE, not a whole entire saga of TV show episodes!!! Plus, if they fought each other anyways, Cooler would just wipe Frieza’s face off the planet due to his Instant Transmission mastery. Were also forgetting guys that Cooler is in his 5th form, and Frieza is in his 4th form. Someone said earlier that if Frieza went to his 5th form, he could beat Cooler easily. - This makes no sense because Frieza’s 4th form is his FINAL FORM! Cooler's 5th form is his FINAL FORM. This means that Cooler would be significantly stronger. It also states in the anime that Frieza was spoiled rotten as a kid. Cooler was the "un-loved" child, which means he grew up learning to be tough and gritty. I know this may sound stupid, but it would be a big factor in a fight. Cooler also is in control of 256 planets, which means he had the power to take over all these planets, while little brother Frieza on the other hand struggled just to take over Namek. Cooler is the stronger of the brothers and would win in a fight, and I do know my own arguments thank you very much. Edited by Meta Cooler, Jul 25 2009, 12:27 AM.
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An optimist is someone who falls off the Empire State Building, and after 50 floors says, 'So far so good!' If you can't see the bright side of life, polish the dull side. If you lend someone $20 and never see that person again, it was probably worth it. | |
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| * Psyam | Jul 25 2009, 12:42 AM Post #14 |
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And thousands of Cooler's against two Saiyans was a real fight? They were only helpless because there were outnumbered. The combined might of Goku and Vegeta was too much for a single Meta Cooler. Prove it. The fact that base Goku was able to beat up 4th form Cooler without using Kaioken shows that Cooler at his 4th form was a weakling compared to his brother. I don't think upgrading to a form above would close that distance. Hardly. Perfect Cell didn't have Instant Transmission and Goku did, but Goku still lost. It doesn't decide a fight, it can just help in the right situation. Yes, Frieza is a real dandy. Not really. Besides, what Cooler said about Frieza being spoiled goes against the real storyline, in which Frieza says his parents hit him ("Your the first one to hurt me in my true form, besides my loving parents, that is") and the fact that King Cold was constantly criticizing Frieza's every move. And Cooler struggled just to take over Earth, your point? Goku was there on both occasions, the planet itself is insignificant. Do you think Frieza lacked the "power" to seize more planets? That there were all these planets out there that had fighters too strong for him? Cooler had more planets because he was the older brother, he had been in the business longer. I said it wasn't true, which it wasn't. If your going to use "Cooler didn't get a scratch" to make him look stronger, then that's simply not true because Goku wounded him and Goku and Vegeta destroyed both one of his body's and his actual being. You made it sound like he was undefeated. But that's beside the point as it's not Meta Cooler that Frieza is fighting. |
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| RyDub | Jul 25 2009, 12:43 AM Post #15 |
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This debate isn't final forms though. As far as I am concerned this is first form of frezia we see vs first form up cooler and their natural transformations. No meta or mecha here. No unnatural transformations (IE: Cybernetics or the Gete star) |
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